Measure,monitoring and daq SWIRL and TUMBLE

[brandoracing]

Hi guy.
I riceived from an important workshop here in Italy ,an hard task. The want to monitoring and measuring-into the flowbench,during the test- the swirl and tumble motions.
I never study this motion because frequently this phisical phenomena reduce the power. But this factory made private test for a world famous car brand,and request it to me. I don't know because they ask this type of thing to me,but this is an opportunity I never lost.
Now,I look on internet simple device made with small tubes or metallic sponge,but I don't know how they works.
Anyone have an experience???

[Brucepts]

Do a search here on "swirl meter" there was some pretty indepth discussion on this in the past.

Simple to do with a small DC motor, some blades attached to the motor shaft, measuring the spinning voltage output. Clockwise + Counter Clockwise - voltages, higher the voltage the more swirl.

[brandoracing]

Good. any one have other ideas or link?

[1960FL]

just remember, Swirl ans Tumble are valuless numbers unless you are using one of the production units offered. In other words if you make a swirl meter from a small electric toothbrush motor and a half dozen old razor blades you will only be comparing your output number to your output number I/E more swirl, less swirl and this number will change as you place the meter up or down the bore fixture. Please do not get me wrong there is great value in this knowledge but a strict implementation, test methodology and evaluation of data is imperative to not chasing your tail.

Tumble is a hard one but for us simple folk (Me) a clear bore adapter and smoke with video or even littered with string tabs like a sail is a little more informative.

Just some thoughts.

Rick

[Tony]

This is the biggest problem.

There are no engineering units or strict definition of swirl and tumble, nothing meaningful you can calibrate to.

Whatever you build might be very useful for comparing different cylinder head shapes and developing theories about what works and what does not.
But the data and information collected is not really transferable or useful to anyone else, as everyone’s swirl and tumble meter will read differently.

[RACEPUMPER]

Some big names measure swirl, but it still leaves me wondering why for the above reason stated by Tony. Obviously just for their own data comparison. Granted, some will have used the information gathered for their own benefit, but without a 'standard' every meter is different and no calibration can be used that I know of.

Does a measurement devise that isn't (or can't) be calibrated provide valuable data?

Brando's customer must believe it is


Jim

[brandoracing]

Every your answer is gold for me.
so,I talk with this clients,and he explained to me the situation: The main,biggest and ultra-expensive FPT air-flow-meter-studyng-R&D center are clogged from work,and the waiting time to test new solution is incredibly long.
FPT rent entire industrial building of my customer,an old-style race engine private factory. FPT send a lot of new young engineer wich made a thousand of test to find the right way to decrease the diesel-particles emission to the new EURO7 environment pollution law. So,the customer have pre-war facility and invest some (SOME) money to implement new facility. I modify yours old flowbench. Now talk about swirl and tumble measure and we talk also about a wetflow.
In short words,FPT ask external consultancy to my costumer,then my costumer ask external consultancy to me. It's Italy!
I dont need to measuring only:we have a pre-production piece,realized with the modern technology. Young engineer test it and measuring swirl and tumble,to have a adimensional number of this mote. Then,test the piece to look if the modify increase or decrease the famous effects. This working method it's made to make rapid and coarse test for the most advantageous road to follow.
Now,int his days I think some method to measure this effect.

For the swirl I think to create a rounded frame with the similar diameter of the cilynder bor (a simple ring man!!) and fill this with a lot of straws to drink,mounted in vertical position,then fasten-by the frame-ring this "drum" on a torque cell-or load cell- and measuring the effective power in torque the airflow apply to this device

Besides,a similar device,with whippled-disposition straws,mounting in horizontal position in the cylinder, measure the tumble effects. But this is a fantasy idea,only to talk.
For the tumble I think to utilize a normal shovel method.

I want to talk about: look some people and ston cold that develop this device using a rotating shaft+shovel.
But,I think during the rotation the effect can be amplified.

My ideas is to made a static device fasten on a load cell (provided of shaft),wich generated a resistance to the tumble\swirl effect. What do you think?
OK,we are all agree to think is only a empiric measure and doesn't exist a right mode (with this device) but I think a rotating piece can increase the effect or,wors,create the effect where the effect doesn't exist.

[brandoracing]

wow,another question:
THUMBLE or TUMBLE? In wich mode will be wrote?

[Brucepts]

Couple of pics of the simple swirl meter I built years ago for testing my single cylinder flatheads. I used a small DC motor, wires hooked up to a digital volt meter and showed rotation via +/- volts and speed by amount of volts. My setup was inserted into the bore of the engine and sealed with the o-ring you see at the top.

The brushes on the DC motor added a very course feel to the readings (cheap motor), I have 2 precision DC motors I purchased a couple of years back to play with when I got a chance, one sits on my desk and stares at me all the time, I keep running through my head how to best make blades, hasn't gotten to the machining stage. Not something that appears to be a big market for so it has not been a big priority.

The PTS DM has one port that are not currently used in the software but is hooked up . . .