Tractorsport Flowbench Forum Archive

Posted: **Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:51 am**

It's been a while since there's been a post in this area so I thought I'd have a go.

I just sold the honing machine that I made a few years back, there are some photos further back in the DIY shop equipment thread.

I am doing some planning/designing to make a new machine, I have used quite a few different hones over the years and think that most have some good points but i haven't found one yet that couldn't do with some improvement.

I used a CK10 for quite a few years and think that hydraulic stroking would be much better than the mechanical setup on the Sunnen. I've used a couple of hydraulic column style machines which have great control over taper, can be stopped anywhere to remove a tight spot but are messy to use as the block isn't enclosed. My last machine was hand stroking which gave great control over size and taper but there are some days you just dont feel like having a shoulder press workout.

What I'm planning is another cabinet style machine, similar to a Sunnen style. Stroking will be hydraulic, the ram will travel a set length but the stroke length will be adjustable by the top of the ram being attatched to a slider to adjust the distance from the pivot point of the honing head which will change the stroke length.

The block will be mounted on a rollover jig which will rotate 360 degrees to accomodate boxer engines, inline engines and 60 & 90 degree V engines plus V plates to hold blocks for tunnel honing. The rollover will be height adjustable via powered ball screws on each side. This will compensate for not being able to adjust the depth of the hone head due to the hydraulics. It also means I can lift the block out the top of the cabinet to tunnel hone it from the side of the machine.
I'm thinking of setting up a linear slide on the side of the machine to run tunnel/line hones.

I was going to belt drive the spindle from an electric motor similar to my last machine but am now thinking that if I have a hydraulic powerpack there i might as well use a hydraulic motor to drive the spindle as well. I'm using a Sunnen AN hone head but am thinking of setting it up with a top mounted friction feed to expand the stones rather than the one mounted in the spindle drive shaft.

This probably sounds pretty boring to some people but I'm just thinking out loud and asking for any input from people who have used these machines before. I'm trying to design in as many things to make the machine good to use and something that will be a good machine for a long time to come.

The machine will be a similar size to my last one, a couple of photos below:

Posted: **Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:10 am**

Over the the last 23 years i have only used 4 differant types of hones.first was the old belly buster ,next was a sunnen cv16 then a rottler hp5 and finally an old chinese hydraulic machine.I do miss using the sunnen but i feel i have more control with the hydraulic machine and can really chase those stubborn last few tenths.It is a lot harder to hone though i think this is due to not having the coolent flow of the sunnen,and because you have to remove the hone head to hone each cyl ,i am not as strong now as the old belly buster days.Sounds like your making a combo of both of them and i look forward to seeing the results.

Posted: **Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:57 pm**

A good Machine Designer is hard to come by. Most, like you determine the pluses and minuses of machines and build even better machines.

I do the same with flow benches. Have probably drawn up plans for a thousand different configurations over the years but always come back to a few basic platforms with improvements on each one.

In most cases you cannot get every function you want in a given package. Compromise is typical. Makes the designing that much more interesting. I am sure it is the same with your Honing Machines.

Great Job!

Tom V.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:13 am**

Greg
I too have used a number of honing machines. All have good and bad points plus COSTS. So I purchased a used manul hone and reworked. I chose to go air on stroking. I can dwell at any point in the stroke. it lets me tweak the cylinder at any point. Very easy and quick to set up. Cheap to build. We can get the cylinder as good as we want to spend time. I have prints and can take pictures if you are interested. The only part I wished I had better is dual friction. I cannot find a cost conscious dual friction set up. If any of you all know how I can do this prudently, please advise
racear

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:57 pm**

Please post them, I know I'd appreciate it.
scott

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:45 am**

Racear, how do you find the air stroking? I was thinking of trying it as the cost is a lot lower than hydraulics. I was thinking of using flow control valves on the exhaust side of the dcv to smooth the motion of it. I'd be interested in seeing some schematics for the air system you use.

When you say dual friction, do you mean the friction feed hone head? I'm in the process of making one up, just gathering the parts and materials.

Another question, how much air does the hone use and what is it like noise wise?

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:32 am**

Greg & Scot
I have mufflers on all exhaust, so it is not noisy. I looked at hydraulics, and the plumbing and hydraulics parts(pump, valves, plumbing, and leaks) was just too costly for me. Also as hydraulics warm up, the speed changes. You can calculate the air consumption as I am using a 2 inch cylinder. I have a 10 HP compressor in the shop and it doesn't even come close to pushing it to the limit. As I can adjust the stroke with relatively inexpensive micro switches. I control the speeds both in and out with pneutrols. The one advantage that I have over other shops is that I can control the crosshatch angle. Many machines are locked in on crosshatch angle and cannot be changed. We have found that we need to vary the angle on many ring configurations. A big plus. We learn a lot on my rigged up dyno and flow bench.
Yes Greg I am talking about the feed pressure of the stones. I can only control the out pressure of the stones. I would love to back the pressure off before shuting of the honing.
racear

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:59 pm**

Racear, your hone sounds great, would you mind posting up some photos or drawings? As for the hone head, I was going to make just a friction feed out but what you say makes sense, thats a benefit of the ck10 setup where you can back off the stones while it's running.

What would work for that would be to mount the feed wheel over the top of the spindle but not rotating with it. you would need to run a separate shaft dorwn the middle of the spindle with a uni joint inside the the main uni joint on the driven spindle. You could use a linear ball screw inside the main spindle to convert the linear motion of an acme or similar thread that the feed wheel winds down into rotary motion to expand or contact the stones. I've seen some of these that will wind 5" in one turn. This would only provide a limited amount of expansion as you may run out of thread but you could expand the stones close to the bore size you are honing first, similar to an an600 hone that runs in a rod hone.

Just another though, it would be pretty easy to make up an air actuator using the spindle of the hone as the cylinder. It means you would need to run air down the spindle but I'm sure there is some sort of rotary air coupling that will do the job. You could even get rid of the friction wheel altogether if you could control the air well enough. An adjustable pressure relief valve in the line to the actuator could change the stone load and flicking the switch would release the stones.

Maybe I'm just overcomplicating thing?

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:58 pm**

Ok, much simpler idea. My Serdi uses an air drive to turn the spindle, it is like a heavy duty air screwdriver. It's about 1.9" OD and has a button on the side that actuates it. A similar one could be mounted inside the spindle tube of the honer with a uni joint socket on the end that turns the splined shaft inside the hone head.

A sleeve on the outside of the spindle with an internal taper tapering out at each end could push one button when you push it down and another when you pull it up. The down side could expand the stones and the up side contract them. The sleeve can spin on the shaft and be sprung so it centres between the 2 buttons and does nothing unless you slide it one way or another.

Because the sleeve can spin on the shaft you can move it while the spindle is turning. The sleeve can be long enough to cover the buttons, the springs and the circlips etc that retain it all and knurled so it's easy to grip. Some of these screwdrivers can apply quite a bit of torque due to the gear reduction in them and coupled with the planetary reduction one the hone head itself should apply ample load.

You only need one air line running down the spindle which can use a rotary coupling at the top and flexible tube through the top uni joint. Can anyone see any problem with this design? I'll try to draw it up over the weekend and post it up. This almost seems too simple?

Posted: **Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:18 am**

Greg
I was just now able to sign back into the forumn. Bruce did a super job of getting me back on line. I will get you photos this week and a copy of the schematics. I will be glad to help youall any way I can. Mine works extremely well for the cost I have in it. I am just as proud of my dyno. My next project to complete is my flow bench which has been sitting for over a year. Thanks for your patience
racear

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:11 pm**

Ok some one tell me how to post these freaking photos. How dumb can I be?
racear

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:46 pm**

Use the image tab at the top right of the Quick reply screen

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:32 am**

OK RRBD
Tried that and it said had to be url. What The heck am I doing wrong. I just want to show some pics od the hone machine.
racear

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:52 am**

Ok, sorry, use the "add reply", next to the "new topic" tab, and then it will bring up a new window, use the file attachment at the bottom, by clicking the browse tab.
The "add reply" is just after the last post, lower right corner.
If you still cant get it, email them to me and I 'll put them up. Let me know if you need my email, I'll PM you with it. Dont give up, I really want to see these pics.

Thanks
Scott

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:20 pm**

Scott
Will try again. If any one is interested, I have the schematic drawn out also
reed

Tractorsport Flowbench Forum Archive

New cylinder hone.